[ frankie says go fuck yourself ]

[winterlive]

i hate bandom.

phaballa made a post about how bandom guys being gay with each other onstage is as offensive as blackface, and a buncha people commented, i'm sure you've all seen it.

and now bandom's oppressed by fandom at large, and if being gay onstage is exploitative then so is slashfic, and the fundamental point of all RPS is seperating the person from the role so if you hate fallout boy's music but still fan them b/c they gay all over each other that's totally the same thing, and OH GOD MAKE IT STOP.

i just can't STAND it. and to be honest with you, it's not the music. i've heard maybe six songs by the aforementioned bands and one is sort of okay and the others, eh, whatever. and do i care that they french each other on stage? no. i could give a flying fuck. let 'em! but sweet god in heaven, their fans are going to drive me insane. maybe there are two or three people in bandom who are reasonable and like the music (pete wentz's mom?), and i'm sure those three people are about five seconds away from a homicidal rampage right now, because believe me, i know their pain.

after all, i am in supernatural fandom.


ETA: GIP.

Comments

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

my pi, i know you to be a reasonable person. and i love you to pieces. i'm sorry to have hurt your feelings, i honestly am.

it smacks so much of what the fans are complaining about; that other fans feel that it's okay to make sweeping statements like that about band fans.

yeah, it does. you're right.

but that's because it IS okay to make sweeping statements like that about band fans - or at least the ones that would espouse that kind of logic. fannish entitlement is a really, REALLY insidious and prevalent disease, and bandom has it in spades. it seems like every time i see a bandom wank come up, the majority of bandom folks talk like they're the only ones to ever have been told that they shouldn't like what they like, that nobody else was ever told their writing was intrusive, that the wide internets has never categorized an entire fandom as being bad/wanky/irritating. that nobody else has ever signed onto a fandom b/c they loved it and suddenly people started defriending them.

yeah, some people hate bandom. people are entirely entitled to hate bandom if they want to. i haven't seen a single case of anybody coming into bandom journals or communities to tell them they suck, but if i did, my advice would be to ban them and forget it.

bandom seems to be furious that people don't like them. well... that's life, man. ask RPS writers, or harry potter fandom, or hell, popslash people from back in the day. people don't like you? that's the way it is.

now, if LJ started banning you for writing bandslash, or bandom journals/communities were being trolled by assholes telling you to stop writing, that's when i'd have your back. that shit does not fly.

but bandom's rights do not include me biting my tongue about what i think about it. i'm allowed my opinion. i really am sorry if that opinion offends you, but i haven't heard anything to change it yet.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

but that's because it IS okay to make sweeping statements like that about band fans

but why? i don't think it's ever okay to make sweeping statements like that about ANY fandom. i will agree that some band fans have a sense of fannish entitlement, but that is SOME, and not all. the way i see it, entitlement is a two-way street: the bandom camp feel entitled not to be constantly bashed; the anti-bandom camp feels entitled to publicly hate on what the bandom camp likes. put it this way: band fans are not going to stop feeling persecuted until anti-bandomers stop treating them like they don't have a right to talk about what they like IN THEIR OWN JOURNALS.

i haven't seen a single case of anybody coming into bandom journals or communities to tell them they suck, but if i did, my advice would be to ban them and forget it.

oh? how about one of my best friends, on AND offline, telling me over and over that she doesn't "get" my fandom, the bands i like are dumb, so-and-so grosses her out, she can't believe my taste in music is so bad, etc.? should i just ban/forget her? it's not that easy. trust me, i do a lot of shrugging off, being in this fandom, because i GET IT. i get that other people do not like bandom. i am FINE WITH THAT as long as they don't try to make individual people feel SHITTY about liking what they like, telling them that they are somehow "lesser" than fans in other fandoms because of what they choose to right about.

no, bandom is not the first fandom to have other people dislike them. yes, hating bandom and saying so in your own journal is your prerogative. but IF THIS IS YOUR PREROGATIVE, then it is equally bandom's prerogative to be angry/upset/in arms over the fact that people are publicly and privately calling them out for what they enjoy. fandom gets looked down upon enough from the outside; i just think it would be great if people would stop creating reasons to in-fight. i KNOW how idealistic that is. i know, but i can't help wishing it anyway.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

*what they choose to write about.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

ooh, now, you have now attributed something to me that i did not attribute to myself, and i will take this moment to correct you.

when it comes to the bands of bandom - MCR, FOB, etc - i don't personally care for them. i liked one of FOB's songs one time, and i have tried others, but whatever. there are lots of bands i don't care for, and lots of people who love them. so i am not trashing on those bands. listen to them all you want. i do not care enough about them to tell you that you listening to them or writing about them is bad. i will get bored, yes. but as you know, that's not the same.

no, the thing that that drives me mental is not the BANDS, it's the BANDOM. i'm sorry that your friend gives you such a hard time about what you like - if it were me, i'd be using strong language with her by now. it's just, i don't know if you know this, but it makes you really super defensive with people who aren't like that.

you have loved bandom for a long time. i have never once told you that the thing you love sucks, and i never will. but your fellow bandomers are makin me CRAZY, like. i feel for you, pi, because you're stuck in a fandom with a lot of super crazy people. look at that post i linked above, check out the comments - it's like a wank convention, and worse yet, on both sides. like i said in the post, i'm sure there are some of you that are perfectly nice people. but i'm being completely honest with you when i tell you that there's a lot of not-so-nice people there, too.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

like i said in the post, i'm sure there are some of you that are perfectly nice people. but i'm being completely honest with you when i tell you that there's a lot of not-so-nice people there, too.

there's nothing about that statement that isn't true of any fandom, or of fandom at large. that does not make it okay for you to say, "i hate bandom." you wanna say, "i hate the people in bandom who have a persecution complex"? go ahead. you say, "i hate bandom," and what you're doing is saying that you hate the bands (fine), you hate the fic (also fine), you hate all the people who choose to enjoy it (NOT FINE).

and yes, i am defensive. you know why? it's not because i feel persecuted or oppressed by other people disliking what i like, but because people i respect are telling me that it is not okay for me to feel angry and annoyed that people keep telling me that what i like is somehow less acceptable than what they like. sure, i look around bandom sometimes and think, "wow, there's a lot of crazy here." but i thought that about SPN, i thought that about QAF, i thought that about HP.

you keep saying that we are not the first to be looked down upon. no, we're not. you've BEEN there. why would you turn that around on other people? you are not, personally, telling me not to like the bands i like; i realize that. what you ARE doing is enforcing the idea that it is acceptable to treat bandom as a whole like it's less intelligent, less worthy of notice, than other fandoms. if you have been there, then wouldn't you agree that if someone were telling you that, you'd be fucking pissed? and then even more so when they say, "hey, you can't be mad at me! i have a right to feel the way i feel!"

i am not the most clannish of fandomers. i usually pick a small corner, a small gaggle of writers/thinkers i like best, and seldom venture out of it. i don't think that's either a particularly good thing or a particularly bad thing. i do think that it's worth noting, though, because when you say, "i hate bandom," i feel like i have to pick a side. and you know what? i pick the side of the crazies with the delusions of oppression, because at least they're not calling out other fangirls for being less intelligent simply by virtue of their interests. i KNOW that's not what YOU said. but that's the opinion you're helping defend.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

...are you actually telling me that because i don't like the band-fandom-at-large, i must therefore be agreeing with the opinions of all the other people that don't like it?

isn't that kind of like if i were to tell you that if you like bandom you must therefore agree with the people that have delusions of oppression?

supernatural fandom is full of teeny-boppers who only like the show because jared and jensen are hot. harry potter fandom is a wankapalooza. smallville fandom is a wankapalooza squared. buffy & angel fandom is pseudo-intellectual snobbery, trekkies are nerds and the RPSers are kinky perverts.

all of the above statements are true. those fandoms, taken as a whole, reflect those qualities. it doesn't mean every single person in them is wretched. try to understand that. i don't want to offend you further, but i don't agree with you on this point and you haven't yet said anything to me that would convince me.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

isn't that kind of like if i were to tell you that if you like bandom you must therefore agree with the people that have delusions of oppression?

actually, i was saying that the specific choices you made in your wording are exemplary of the kind of thing that makes band fans feel angry and put upon. however, you may have said, "maybe there are two or three people in bandom who are reasonable and like the music," and you may have placed me in that tiny faction, but as soon as i started defending bandom, you basically DID tell me that i was agreeing with the people that have delusions of oppression.

it doesn't mean every single person in them is wretched.

which is why i would never say in my journal, "i hate harry potter fandom!" or "i hate smallville fandom!" if you truly meant that not every single person in bandom was wretched, you would have said, "i hate [this type of bandom fangirl]." that's not what you said.

i am not trying to convince you to stop hating bandom. i am trying to say that if you and others have a right to hate bandom, then band fans have an equal right to be angry about the way that you and others are publicly calling us out. that's all.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

maybe i'm misunderstanding you. what wording did i use that is exemplary of the kind of thing that makes band fans feel angry and put upon?

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

"i hate bandom."

i... thought i'd quoted it at you enough times that it would be overkill to do it again.

anyway, i had never meant to get sucked so far into this discussion, but statements like "i'm sure there are some of you that are perfectly nice people" just smack of condescension to me.

mostly, i was just not aware how vehemently you felt against this thing that i enjoy, these people -- of which there are many more than three who are sane and intelligent and enjoy the music as much, if not more than, they enjoy the gay/pseudo-gay antics of the people making it -- who are my friends. like i said, hate the bands all you want. hate the people mouthing off about how bandom is a target all you want. hell, say you hate bandom all you want. just don't defend your right to say that and then turn around and say that you wish we'd all shut up about how your hatred makes us feel bad.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

...but that, that very last thing you said, is exactly what makes me crazy about bandom.

when bandom complains that they're being oppressed, they accuse EVERYBODY who doesn't care for bandom. i'm not one of those people! i don't harangue you! and if you keep saying that i do, then i might as well start.

i didn't hate bandom until bandom repeatedly told me i did. do you see? do you get it?

and if you, one of my very good friends who knows me well, can come into my journal and tell me that i'm oppressing you by having an opinion about your fandom, how will any other member of that fandom even hope to make me think any different?

i don't hate the bands. i don't think any of you are wrong or bad for liking them. i don't pretend that you can't or shouldn't like them, i don't say you shouldn't write or that the writing sucks or that anybody or any part of bandom is stupid or in some way lesser because they like those bands. now if you will just stop telling me that i do, we'll get along fine.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

i didn't hate bandom until bandom repeatedly told me i did.

right, that's exactly it. it's like when a high school kid puts on some costume or other and then starts picking fights to prove their devotion. 'you hate me because i'm different, don't you?!' well, now that you're in my face, yes, yes, i do.

if you-plural aren't insecure about this thing you say you love, then you won't need to force these situations where you have to defend it. but all this shouting until someone says shut up, then getting indignant that you were hushed? it's juvenile, and not in the fun way.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

Hear hear. My entire friendslist is awash with SGA and bandom; of the two, SGA aggravated me more until the bandommers suddenly started up a chorus of "we the oppressed" and WOULDN'T STOP.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

I don't doubt that there are some real jerks out there who contributed to the posture, but when you have your fists up all the time, sooner or later someone's going to take you up on it and throw a punch, man.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

see, on the same token, i wasn't up in arms about having to defend my fandom until people started yelling for all of us to shut up. i am indignant in this particular situation because i thought that the majority of the comments to phaballa's entry were simply people expressing their disagreement, often in a very thoughtful manner that provoked discussion. i take issue with people lumping that desire to discuss with "help! i'm being oppressed!" and that's why i actually jumped in with my two cents on this post.

love bandom or hate it or don't give a shit either way about it. all i ask is that people be civil about it, and not act like band fans defending their fandom is automatically equal to them jumping up and down about other people trying to get their fandom down.

[teaspoon.livejournal.com]

i never told you to love or hate bandom, danny, and i never said you were haranguing us. i told you that when you make a sweeping generalization about hating bandom, which includes me and some of my closest friends, it bothers me.

i also never said you were oppressing me. i said, and yes, i am defensive. you know why? it's not because i feel persecuted or oppressed by other people disliking what i like, but because people i respect are telling me that it is not okay for me to feel angry and annoyed that people keep telling me that what i like is somehow less acceptable than what they like.

you countered that YOU have never said that what i like is less acceptable. okay. thank you. but you are still telling me that i, and the rest of bandom, should sit down and shut up, even if other people ARE telling us we are lesser. i'm saying that my opinion is that you do not have a place to tell an entire fandom how to feel about other people calling them out.

furthermore, i am telling you that you do have every right to say that you hate bandom, BUT that it bothers me when you do, and that is a perfectly valid feeling, which i have every right to express, and so does every other person in bandom. yes, some people are going straight from "i disagree with phaballa's post" to "omg! everybody hates bandom! stop it!" but just as many, if not more, people are saying, "i disagree with phaballa's post, and here's why. however, i respect her right to her own opinion. you don't have to like our fandom, but please let us have our discussion in peace."

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

you have every right to express anything you want, man. all bandom does. if you express it over and over and over and over, as you-plural are fond of doing, sooner or later you'll start pissing off people like me, who never had any problem with bandom until this. all i'm suggesting is that you recognize that bandom is acting as architect of the very thing that cheeses them off hardest. maybe not YOU, personally, but definitely you-at-large.

just because you have the right to do it doesn't make it a good idea.