[ hi there, fandom ]

[winterlive]

okay, first and foremost, if you're not familiar with buffy fandom, or if you don't know who glossing is, y'all would do best to keep on walkin. a good part of my heart still lives in that fandom, so that's who i'm talking to here.

so.

like a lot of people, i came into this whole wank halfway. i was shiny and new to fandom, and because i had, in fact, interacted with other human beings before, the fact that some of them didn't get along was not shocking to me. whatever, i thought. people fight. it's not my business. i'm just here to have fun.

now, some of these people wrote really exceptional fic, and as i friended them and read their posts, i got to care about them, too.

and for me, that's where things changed.

i became a part of this community. i still wanted to have fun, but to me, throwing up my hands and declaring switzerland in a fight that spanned a large part of my flist was tantamount to saying that since i never go to the north side of my home town and don't know anybody who lives there and or what they're fighting about, i could not be blamed for the gang problem.

of course i couldn't be blamed in the glossing wank. but who cared? it wasn't about blame. it was about responsibility - and not just to a bunch of people i didn't know, but to people i liked.

so i followed the links. i watched the comments evolve, i read the posts, and I asked people for their opinions, their experiences. i got a lot of sides of this whole story, yes, but more importantly, i watched both sides. i read the backstory, where i could find it, straight from the horse's mouth. and i had my own interactions with everyone involved.

and now that i've taken care to inform myself, i feel comfortable choosing a side. i feel comfortable taking a side, at all. i feel obliged to take a side, with the facts i have.

i can't back up people who want to have an opinion on this wank - even dear god, let the wank stop - if they're not informed about it. we have a community here, it belongs to us, and that includes the problems we inherit from those who came before us. even if those problems are ugly. even if we might not want to deal with them. that's the nature of a community. there's good and there's bad, and you gotta take 'em both. it's not a paid-for service, y'know? if you care about the people here, then it is personal, even if you weren't around when things started.

i don't want you to take my side. i don't even want you to take a side. i just want you to know why i take one, and how i got there. if glossing is your buddy, or ros is, take the time to learn what happened. it's not a secret. these are public posts. ask questions. you'll get answers.

having friends isn't always easy. if i didn't care so much about those involved, i wouldn't bother. i'd just have my little fandom fun and enjoy things and ignore wank when it came around. but i do.

i guess i wanted to say all that out loud. i think that's important.

ETA: what happened, with links.


so, to short all that up: ros, kita, ruby, vi, lar, jane, wg, maybe we don't talk every day, but y'all rock. i've seen enough to know that, and i hope you know it, too.

and on a wider note about wank in general, i think it's really inevitable in any fandom. sooner or later, people are going to disagree and fight and argue, and i think if we didn't do that, we wouldn't really be human.

and i think it's our responsibility, as a community, to stay informed when these things happen. we don't have a governing body, but we have a society, so we have to police ourselves. there's, like, whistle-blowers and journalists and resources out there among us.

i know there's folks who hate wank, and i can't blame them, but i'm not afraid of it. there was a time that i was, but i'm not anymore. i promise you all i won't shutter up and be silent just because someone might not like what i have to say, and i further promise i won't start shit just to start shit. that's my way, man. kind of a pacifist activist.

in the spirit of that, i got an email to send. :)

Comments

[rubywisp.livejournal.com]

I love you, my Weenter. Oh so very much.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

♥♥♥♥♥

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

You are so cool. Also, sane. I like sane. *mwah*

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i loff you, my kitten. :*

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

This is - an awesome post, from a completely different perspective and I am speechless with admiration. Because yes - in the end, people are totally and capable of making up their own minds and we *are* a community and one I am proud and happy to be a part of. I love LJ, I love the people I have friended, the ones who have me friended, all of the richness and difference and originality, the fact that there are so many people who come together originally for fic but they stay for so much more.

I squish and hug you.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i am happy to be in fandom with the likes of you. <3

[ahestele.livejournal.com]

A chunk of my heart still lives in that fandom, too. I might not write the fic anymore but I read it, I still have some of the first LJ sibs I made because of it, and I do consider those people fine enough to take a stand for. I know who the person in question is and I had run far and fast by the time she began to really hurt people. The damage done to a close knit, warm community was bad.

Thanks for saying what you did and for putting it so well and succintly.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

amen, sister. <3

[vylit.livejournal.com]

You are a superstar, and I <3 this post and you. A lot.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

YOU are the superstar here, baby. *titmash*

[0nlymemories.livejournal.com]

On an amusing and happy note... Supernatural has made fandom_wank for the firs time... And it has nothing to to with incest!

I was almost ded of shock, I was.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

OMG. If THAT wank is the worst we got, then man, we're doing GOOD. :)

[babyofthegroup.livejournal.com]

The worst thing is when wank breaks out between two people on your friendslist in a really nasty, bitter, and yet simultaneously friendslocked kind of way -- especially if one side's entries are locked to you and the other side's aren't, because then there's no chance to find out what the other side thinks.

I've not been involved in any major wankage (er, at least I don't think so?) but I've seen it happen to friends of mine and it's... it's a strange position to be in, when you're still friends with party A, but not party B -- but some of your friends are friends with party B and not party A. Wank has the potential to factionalize *everyone*, even those in completely separate fandoms. I guess I just hate feeling like I should defriend the friends-of-B out of loyalty to A. Especially when I don't know B's side.

Guilt is such a complex emotion.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean. It's slipping around Supernatural as we speak - old wank from other fandoms coming in as the fans do. But as far as I'm concerned, it's just as I said above - I want to be informed. I'm interested in all sides, I'm keeping an open mind - and biggest of all, I'm watching people. I'm seeing the things they do, the posts they make, for myself. I don't think I could fairly judge without that, y'know?

Loyalty and trust is a two-way street. I've usually found that anybody who wants me to defriend someone else is in the wrong. And I also find that anybody who doesn't want me to know the details of a fight, but still can't let it go in front of me, they're in the wrong too.

I DEFINITELY find that it's useful to me to not judge people based on their flist. If I meet someone I like, and they happen to have glossing friended (or someone else I'm not on-side with), then who cares? I'll be friends with them anyway. And if it ever comes up, hey, I'll argue the point with them, but that doesn't make me not their friend. Y'KNOW, BABIES? *smish*

[robanybody.livejournal.com]

I harth you so much, Danny. You are my love.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

You win me over every day. *sends love in a box*

[digitalwave]

I read the SPN wank over there. It amazes me sometimes how casually cruel people can be. I would never even imagine saying some of the things they find it perfectly acceptable to say about another fan.

Even if you don't like what they are doing there are so many other ways to talk about it rather than making fun of someone and calling them a loser.

I wonder how they would feel if they ever found themselves on the receiving end of someone else's hate?

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I'm of two minds about fandom_wank. On the one side, it seems like they're just making fun at others' expense, which is, y'know, rude. But on the other hand - and I admit, I usually only read the Buffy wank and now the SPN wank, but - it seems like they're pretty equal-opportunity in their mocking. So I feel like, despite their rudeness, they provide two essential services:

1. Reminding us that wank is stupid, and that those who take part in real wank (IE: You're a nazi! I'm taking my toys and leaving fandom forever!) as opposed to reasoned discourse, no matter what side they're on, are pretty silly.

2. Documenting this behaviour for future generations. When I was reading back on the glossing wank, and the jennyo wank, and innumerable others, f_w was instrumental. They had screencaps of deleted posts, links to specific comments of note, everything you'd need to get the real story, from the people who said it.

So it's a double-edged deal, that. Y'know?

[tabaqui]

You're so right. Community, and that *does* imply a certain amount of responsibility and of self-policing.
And owning up to shite when you're wrong.
Damn good post.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

I'm not sure where all this left you, in the end. I hope that you managed to work things out with Fod - I read the post in question, and I didn't see it there, but maybe I missed it or it was in private emails. I hold out hope, because I like you, and I like Fod, and I want good things for you both.

[estrella30.livejournal.com]

I loff you, danny. I loff you more than pie.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

that is a significant amount of love omg. <3333

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

Wonderful, thoughtful post. Buffy is and will always be my first, best fandom, I think, and I'm still entirely emotionally invested there; both with the people, who are still some of my greatest friends, and with the fandom itself. It's a shame when really poisonous wank comes along, but you're absolutely right, it's necessary to stay informed.

Thanks for this.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sugar. I didn't know Buffy was your home fandom! I feel like I just found out you were born in my hometown. <333

[yin-again.livejournal.com]

Nicely said, dearheart. Also, true.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Thank you, sweetness. I miss you, yo! <3

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

::loves you to bits:: You're absolutely right.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

*loves you right back* Thanks, sweetie. You're awesome, y'know?

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for being so thoughtful and taking the time to make an educated decision. That means more than whichever "side" you end up on, honestly. *Hugs*

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

That was my opinion as well. *cuddles you*

Just so's you know, sugar, I still think you're awesome. Fandom drift and whatnot, but there it is. <3

[obsessedmuch.livejournal.com]

Thank you, hon. Just, you know, for saying things that other people might not have considered. And for being fab. *hugs*

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

SOME people are fab around here, lar, and i'm LOOKIN AT HER. *smishes you*

[moosesal.livejournal.com]

Really well put, sweetie. The wank in Buffy fandom is the reason why I don't have several people friended. I decided long ago that with some people, I mostly interested in their fic and I could find that through su_herald and just keep myself disassociated. I have too much going on in my life to get involved in stuff that happened before I was around, you know? But I sometimes wonder what I would do if something current was happening to someone I'm really close to (or, god forbid, to me). I have several online friends that I are important to me and I've become incredibly close to a handful of people through LJ.

and now that i've taken care to inform myself, i feel comfortable choosing a side. i feel comfortable taking a side, at all. i feel obliged to take a side, with the facts i have.

Kudos to you for informing yourself. I sometimes skim through the wank and I'm always blown away by people who say "I don't know what's going on, and I'm not getting involved, but you should be nice to XXX because she's my friend." Huh? What? Puh-leeze. If I don't know, I really don't get involved.A And like you, if it's someone I care about, I make the effort to find out what is going on. And even then, my involvement's probably going to be confined to a private e-mail to the person I care about. I have enough going on in my life. I don't need the extra drama. ;-)

*knocks on wood that I never end up in an online nightmare*

Anyway, smooches to you, babe.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

If I don't know, I really don't get involved. And like you, if it's someone I care about, I make the effort to find out what is going on.

and that's just as it should be. moosie, you're the best. <333

[dancetomato.livejournal.com]

Word. You are *so* sexy when you are standing up for your principles.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

*shakes principles in your direction*

[petal-n-thorn.livejournal.com]

Very nice post.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sugar. :)

[flaming-muse.livejournal.com]

Nicely said.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :)

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

the whole glossing thing is WOW. (are you in buffy fandom?)

I think your position is absolutely spot on. There is a difference between fandom-based wank and then personal stuff about being a human being. We all disagree about fic and media and blah blah personality conflicts. However, when people start making personal attacks and doing things that in the RL are considered HATE crimes or just crimes in general, that's a massive line.

These are the things I thik fandom needs to actually address directly now-a-days. We need to have a real discussion about how wanting fandom to be placid and peace and/or bringing the wank and loving to wank on is not the same sort of dichotomy as sitting by when people are criminal/psychopathic/dangerous.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

1. of course i'm in buffy fandom! this used to be my default icon for years; it's a cap from "amends". hi there, stranger, nice to meetcha. :)

2. i just, i think that when it comes to wank, if people could just approach things with a level head, it'd be for the best, y'know? kita and fod and swm and everybody, they kept a level head for a very long time, and i think they're still keeping a level head in their current decision. if someone keeps attacking you no matter what you do, you push back. that's the way it's gotta be.

like i said, i'm totally in favor of saying things out loud. one post, one comment isn't going to show anything. with eljay, we're fortunate in that we can look back, we don't have to take anybody's word for anything. i can browse back through glossing's journal and read her opinions about things for myself, i can learn what kind of a person she is. if i respond to something on her journal and she blows up at me, or refuses to answer, well, that tells me something about her.

it's like what happened with you and cee - cee's initial post might have seemed wanky, but she kept a level head on, and so did you, and things got patched up nicely, y'know? wank can get out of control fast, but i find that if i'm familiar with my subject matter and i don't go crazylike (and neither does the person i'm talking to), usually we can make things right.

[ros-fod.livejournal.com]

Hi, lovely. I hart you.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hi fod hi hi hi. ♥

[desoto-hia873.livejournal.com]

I wandered over here via friendsfriends. I don't know most of the people involved in this kerfuffle, but I just wanted to say that this is an eminently sensible post. Thanks for writing it.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks. I'm all about the sensibles. :)

[vampsarecool.livejournal.com]

Ok I'm confused what is the wank this time. I'm so tied up in SV fandom and the wank there this past week. So what the hell happened?

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

ely_jan, in her journal, asked people for their definitions of a 'flame' (http://ely-jan.livejournal.com/100172.html). glossing showed up and answered ely's question by misquoting ros_fod, without actually naming fod as the source. when fod showed up to defend herself and correct the quote, some of ely's flist mistakenly thought that fod was the attacker, and wank ensued.

i heard about the SV wank, though. man, some fen are crazycakes. DEAR MICHAEL: HIRE SOME BODYGUARDS PLSKTHX.

[kristinholt.livejournal.com]

I love you. Will you be my friend?

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

*giggles* no man is so rich as to turn away a friend, poppi. <3