(no subject)

[winterlive]

Man, y'know one of the things I like best about Veronica Mars?

The chicks.

There's not a trace of a Mary Sue in any one of them. They're ballsy and brave, or they're cowards and simpering. They're intelligent or stupid, they're flawed and perfect. They're FUNNY, in the way where you laugh with them, not at them. (For a classic example of women you laugh AT, see Elliot in Scrubs. Sometimes she gets good lines, but mostly she's just a neurotic moron.) But no matter what they are, they're always real. People. You're not expected to have sympathy for her just because it's a girl, and she's crying. You're not expected to ignore the fact that she doesn't really have a role on the show because she's got a killer rack. They all have purpose, they all have stories. No matter what kind of people they are, they're always relevant. Veronica Mars has its chicks down cold, and dear God, I love them for it.

VM/Lilly Kane 4ever.

Except for that Jackie chick. I loathe her. I keep seeing these scenes where we're supposed to maybe have sympathy for her, and I never ever get suckered ever. I hate her. I liked her better when she was ordering Veronica to make her a mochachino. At least then she was bitchy. And they better not try to make her a nice person that is in any way worthy of Wallace, or I'll find Rob and hurt him. Alicia taught Wallace better than that, man.

OMG! Okay, tangential. I was about to toss a *coughDawncough* onto the end of "relevant", and then I realized: how much better would Buffy's storyline have been if she'd had to kill her at the top of that tower to save the world? How much more angst would we have gotten into because of the whole slayer/killer thing? Dracula at the beginning might have been very VERY relevant! Things could have gone CRAZY!! *brain firing all over the place* omg I bet it was Joss's plan the whole time until the show got cancelled, the bastard!

Quick ETA before mistake: Not bashing Dawn. Just saying that, like Xander (and y'all know how much I love Xander) she didn't have a lot to do in s6, s7 BtVS. She was just sort of there because she was Buff's sister, so she kinda had to be around. Which is fine for realism, but ass for storyline.

Comments

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

Damn. Now you are just teasing.

I bought VM S1, loved it, yes you are right about the chicks!

But, alas, my sad little burg has no UPN and I'm too technologically incompetent high minded and moral to download eps, so I'm stuck till S2 comes out.

but based on your rec, I already hate this Jackie chick.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

She is a... A NOT NICE PERSON! Winter no like. *squinty growly*

I have no UPN either, but I... certainly do not download. If you wanted to discuss particulars of how not to download things, or possibly about how to send files from me to you over the internets (unrelated) you should email me. *G*

[rylock.livejournal.com]

I think Whedon's original plan was actually to have Buffy stay dead, though I may be wrong. Certainly I think that may have been the better place to go, story-wise. Have Buffy dead, for good, maybe having Dawn step up and actually take over the leadership of the Scoobies, give her some actual cohones and purpose instead of just being around to whine a lot. Or have Xander step up! Ooo. When they flirted with the idea of Dawn being the next Slayer after Buffy that was the only time Dawn seemed remotely interesting even if it made no sense.

Me, I would have liked to have either seen Buffy dead or have Buffy kill Dawn. One of the two. Then proceed from there. The Dark Willow route was good, but they never did fulfill the promise of Xander or Anya or even Spike. There's a lot of ways they could have gone which would have been good and which wouldn't have predicated the entire show on Sarah Michelle Gellar thinking she was too good for TV.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Buffy kill Dawn. Hands down. I had many thoughts on the bus home today about how s6 should have gone differently, and they were all good.

Mmm. Xander.

[valancymay.livejournal.com]

The only female character who has seemed overdrawn to me so far is Mandy, the dog girl - and it might just be that she has entirely the wrong look, or that she seems too old to be in high school.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Yeah, yeah, I think so. She's a nerd, an obvious nerd you're meant to laugh at. But Veronica got mad at her for not standing up for herself, and it illustrated nicely how much of a hardass V is, so she's got a point for being there, even if she is kinda lame.

[lynnenne]

Joss probably felt he'd already done the whole "Buffy kills someone she loves to save the world" storyline with Angel. I think this time he wanted to show the heroine sacrificing herself, because that's Joss's idea of a hero.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I guess. It's just... I was discussing a syllogism the other day with a few people:

Buffy:Faith::Angel:Spike
Angel:Buffy::Spike:Faith
Buffy:Spike::Angel:Faith

It's a popular syllogism, I'm sure you've seen it before. And I know for damn sure if Buff had had to kill Dawnie, she'd go a whole different place with it than in s3. I would have loved to see evil!Buffy - Buffy's version of Angelus. And to see how that'd affect Faith, since Faith inevitably would be there.

Now THERE'S a f/f I'd read happily. (or possibly write.)

[lynnenne]

Oh, I would have *killed* to have seen evil!Buffy. Not the pseudo-evil Buffy of s6, but real, died in the wool, flay-a-guy-alive-and-try-to-destroy-the-world evil. Watching Faith try to drag her back from that... that would have been a STORY, dude.

redbrickrose is writing a B/A/S/F foursome. EEEEEEE!

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

See, yes. Yes. That's exactly it.

Season 6 should have gone like this:

The Gift: Buffy kills Dawn to save the world.

s6 1-6: Buffy seems to be dealing better than they expected. She has down moments, but by and large, she's okay. Willow hangs out a lot (they're bonding, actually), but Xander's worried.

OMWF: Xander summons the demon, Anya gets kidnapped for the child bride. (Much funnier.) Xand suffers. Buffy sings about not caring about anything anymore, but to a rock number. Still B/S at the end.

Tabula Rasa: Will does the spell, Tara freaks and leaves. Giles notices something's up with the demon populations in Sunnydale (remarkably low).

Smashed/Wrecked: Buffy and Spike shag a lot. Chilling push in on our Slayer as she threatens Spike's life with a loose, easy smile. Spike's more than a little confused - he's supposed to be getting her to her dark side, but she's already there?

Gone: Buffy goes invisible. Doris the social worker gets hospitalized.

Doublemeat Palace: Something's going on in a burger joint. Buffy investigates. Anya suggests she get a job, as her money must be running short. Buffy and Willow laugh and blow her off, Anya has angst re: human/demon thing.

Dead Things: The geeks frame up Buffy for murder, Buff doesn't care. She's a killer, what's one more? Willow and Xander freak out, but very quietly. Buffy and Spike make out in rubble while Will and Xander call in rehabilitated!Faith. Xander's against it, but Will insists. Faith won't have anything to do with it until Willow says Buffy's killed a girl, and then she comes running. The truth about the Katrina doesn't come out yet.

Older and Far Away: Faith arrives and kicks the everloving shit out of a very bad guy. Buffy wisecracks on the sidelines. The Buffy/Faith episode omg. Faith confronts her and Buffy gets angry - thought Faith of all people would get it. Faith does, actually, and tries to talk to Buffy about how it's not cool to hate yourself, but Buffy pulls an ultimatum - with me or against me - and Faith picks with. They slay together, and share a non-fat yogurt after. Faith says, "My way's better." Buffy nods sagely.

Hell's Bells: As is, except Buffy attends with Faith and they ditch out early. Spike shows up looking for Buff, but she's gone. He asks Willow if Buffy's okay, lately when he sees her, she's... in a bit of a rush. Will says Buffy's fine, but looks concerned.

Normal Again: As is. OMG such an awesome episode. Faith saves the day. Buffy's a fucking disaster area. Uninvites Spike from the house, threatens to kill him if she ever sees him again. And is very scary when she does so.

Entropy: Buffy almost kills again over a parking ticket or something stupid, Faith's there in the nick of time. Buffy's dead inside, and Faith's freakin out. Spike and Anya get it on. Xand about loses it and Willow makes the calm. Xander still believes the worst about Buffy and Spike when Spike fesses up, because everybody knows she's crazy lately.

Seeing Red - Grave: Season ender arc. Warren kills Tara. Willow loses it and goes after him, there's a three-way fight on the freeway between Will, Buff and Faith, lots of "I thought you'd be on my side"s and hurled accusations. Willow magics her way out of it and Buffy and Faith have a final throw-down duke-it-out Angel-and-Faith-in-the-alley fight. Buffy cries in Faith's arms - she killed her sister, her SISTER. Faith tries to comfort. Back in Sunnydale, Evil!Willow shows up, KO's Xander and fights with Giles. RIGHTTHEFUCKON. Buffy and Faith arrive and pick the boys up off the ground, regroup. Faith stays with Giles as Buff and Xander go off after Willow. Xander gets put in the hole in the ground and, against his better judgement, Spike saves him. Buffy and Willow make it through together at the temple, Will breaks down about Tara. Buffy knows what she's going through. In the hole in the ground, Spike is stolen by a mysterious force that is very angry with him and re-ensouls him.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

s7: Which was, of course, the First Evil. Because after a season like that, you gotta go home again. There are a million shout-outs to the first season, and to the rest of the show, including guest stars. Spike's soul is a torment upon him, but it's not temporary. It's intended as a torment, and there's much more of The First in the basement taunting him by being a bunch of people, especially himself, but including Angel and Darla and Drusilla. Because crazy!Spike in the basement was cool, but could have been cooler. He is nobody's love interest, but Xander is slightly better disposed toward him because of the life-saving. They have at least one conversation where Xander asks why, and Spike doesn't really have an answer. Later in the season, Xander is kidnapped by minions of the first and comes back different - in fact, it's not Xander at all, but The First in his guise. Because your heart is your weakness. It subverts the team from the inside (and we know it's The First but the Scoobies don't), and Xander is tortured in the cave, not Spike. Because that'll kill us all, and I'm evil when I'm being Joss. There's a day-save, but the Scoobies are horribly rattled: it's XANDER. The potentials exist, but are far less annoying. We don't bring in Faith until the very very end; Giles comes in to train the girls, because that's his job. Everyone helps out. Spike and Buffy slay as a team (except when Buffy's making a point), and when Angel comes in with his amulet, there's no flippin kissing. But there's still a cookie speech, and it's written better so that it's clear that the lame analogy is Buffy's dorkdom, not the writers'. Because Buffy's her own person now and doesn't actually need a man to complete her.

There's so much more I could say, but this comment's, uh, a little long. :)

[lynnenne]

*dies*

I *love* your version. I am so pimping this.

Because Buffy's her own person now and doesn't actually need a man to complete her.

WORD.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Whee! Thanks, sugar! It's just, Angel:Buffy. SO OBVIOUSLY. So why don't we get Angelus!Buffy? We need her!

[stultiloquentia.livejournal.com]

Hi stranger! germaine_pet pimped, so I came to see.

*ooh*

So, Buffy turns into Faith and Faith ("No, man, I'm clean now," and giver of pep talks) turns into ... Riley? *ducks vegetables* Kidding!

Actually, this is a really neat outline to argue, because it changes the one aspect of Buffy's character that I find most interesting in S6 and 7: her failure to "go dark." Everybody loves a redemption arc, loves to love a wounded soul who snaps and then has to come back from that and atone. BtVS is swimming in those archetypes. It's easy to know how to feel about them -- and how they feel about themselves -- because their storylines have such big, intensely cathartic crisis points.

Buffy doesn't get that. (Big chunks of fandom would probably like her better if she did.) She never turncoats, but in hanging on, tooth and nail, to the good fight, she pays and pays and pays -- most visibly in her sabotaged relationships and emotional lockdown. And the writers never allow her a cathartic meltdown and a chance to scream at or apologize to her friends for all the little sins they committed against each other.

It's a hard story to watch, but I think it's more provoking than the Rogue Buffy I kind of expected at the beginning of S6, and a more chilling lesson about the price of soldiering.

However, your S7 plan rocks my socks. Canon S7 wimped out.

[lettered.livejournal.com]

It's easy to know how to feel about them [...] because their storylines have such big, intensely cathartic crisis points. [...] And the writers never allow her a cathartic meltdown and a chance to scream at or apologize to her friends for all the little sins they committed against each other.

This is true. This is what I really really liked about S6, actually. It was very real to me.

I wish to marry you too. I wish to move to Utah. Actually, what I really want to do is that Spock mind meld thing with all of you smart people.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I love Riley, but actually no, not so much. Buffy doesn't turn into Faith either. Did you see the syllogism above? The Buffy/Faith dynamic there would echo Angel/Spike pretty hard, but with slightly less mocking.

She would still fail to go dark. She would kill someone, yes, but it wouldn't be that carefree, world-is-my-oyster kind of sociopath that Faith was. It'd ring much more of Angelus, of just this hardass don't-fuck-with-me kind of thing. It'd explore the Killer Vs. Slayer thing they had going, play with it. Buffy would skirt the line way, way harder, and be forced to give up that whole Chosen-er Than Thou thing, but she wouldn't go over. The only real death would be Dawn's. That'd be the theme, as I see it.

I loved season 6. I never really wanted to see a change in it until now. It all came of the f/f wank, and I was trying to think of an f/f I'd want to see. Buffy/Faith is definitely my BtVS F/F OTP, so... I dunno! Mulched up out of my brain!

[lynnenne]

rahirah and I were just talking about this the other day, and as she pointed out, the problem with s6 is s7. I loved s6 for the angst and pain and trauma, but then s7 rolled around and it was all just sort of... swept under the rug. Willow's darkness was reduced to "Magic bad! Must resist!" And the Buffy/Spike reconciliation seemed to come out of nowhere. I just did not buy it. I *do* believe there are couples out there who can come back from that kind of violent, abusive relationship; they may be rare, but it can happen. It just takes a hell of a lot more work than we ever saw them go through on screen.

[lettered.livejournal.com]

Omg I want to marry you and have your babies.

In a completely platonic way.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

HEE. Of course. PLATONIC babies. <3

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

Here via germaine_pet.

Oh, man, I would have loved to have seen this. Buffy actually gone bad would have been fascinating, and the A/S, B/F parallels? Just damn. That's something I'm kind of obsessed with anyway. The B/F shipper in me loves you right now.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Buff flirted with the dark side through her whole career. The closest she got was s6, but I thought she could have gone a lot - A LOT - darker. That they took Willow there instead of Buffy... well, I thought it was a little cowardly. And that they took Willow all the way over the line into evilevilevil... well, that kind of sucked. And then Xander saves the world while Buffy and Dawn fight in a hole. Um... wha?

I would give anything to see everyone give up except Xander. I want to see the scooby gen fic where Willow and Buffy and Giles just give until they can't give any more, and Xander's the last one standing because they were all protecting him, and then he's fighting in their place, losing badly, yelling at them all to get the hell up, get UP. And they do, and they fight, and they win, and Xander gets hurt but not too bad and it was a hard mother fucking battle, but they made it. Sliver of the edge, but they made it.

That's how Xander saves the world.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

Your version would have rocked. There's so much more they could have explored with Buffy, and as for Xander, I'd like to have seen him save the world your way. There were parts of s6 I liked, and I liked the idea of the non-superhero saving the world, but it was a little heavy-handed at the end.

[anelith.livejournal.com]

All I can say is WOW. Your brain is amazing. I would love to see this, I really would.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Me too. Someone call Joss. ;)

[bookishwench.livejournal.com]

Just saying that, like Xander (and y'all know how much I love Xander) she didn't have a lot to do in s6, s7 BtVS.

Or, you know, Giles.

Or Anya.

Or Tara.

Or Spike (other than be spontaneously nekkid, not that that's a bad thing).

Or, heck, Buffy (other than be co-spontaneously nekkid and mopey).

Willow was the only one who really had something to do in season 6, and that was get addicted to crack, and then season 7 rectified that problem with a nice, swift plotlessness for her.

::sighs:: Seasons 6 and 7... the pointless years.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I loved Season 6. I thought they could have gone darker. I thought s7 had some good themes, but a darker s6 could have made them all a lot more pertinent. I may have bunnies as we speak.

[minim_calibre]

Show still needs more Mac.

More Mac would make me a happy person. (Less Jack! More Mac!)

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I totally agree! I love Mac eleventy times! Who the hell is Jack?

[minim_calibre]

(Jackie. Just shortened for the sake of chanting or something.)

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Oh! *is apparently a little slow* Woo, chant! And sandwich boards. Rob'll listen to sandwich boards. You and me, baby! We're stormin' the castle!

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

redbrickrose is writing a B/A/S/F foursome. EEEEEEE!

Well, trying, anyway. ;)

[anoel.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you. Veronica just rocks as a character and is too easy to love. I just adore Lily, she reminds me of my favorite cousin. The show brightened with her in it. It made the mystery so much more poignant. And I loved Meg and Mac and all the girls on the show. I feel the same way about Jackie as well. Ugh, I don't like her at all. But VM is way above her so whatever.