[ coming soon here on Gender Politics... ]

[winterlive]

discussion on how supernatural - and the masculine ethic that it espouses, the WAY it espouses it, and dean in particular - is not sexist.

watch this space.

in other news, i appear to have lost my bank card and all id cards. I DISAPPROVE, WORLD.

likely it is in the cthulhu couch, but i have to get a hold of a certain young lady who is not answering her EMAIL. *shake shake*

ETA: somebody's going to heaven. i appear to have dropped them outside, and some BEAUTIFUL SOUL turned them in at the security desk to my new best friend earnest, the security guy who called the entire world as referenced in my various cards to find somebody who had my phone number, which turned out to be safeway, who called my roommate who called me who ran downstairs to barely restrain myself from hugging earnest to my bosom.

i have my cards! \o/

Comments

[traveller.livejournal.com]

the ender of all things has a couch?

...is it comfy?

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

VERY. and full of pillows.

last night we tried to use those pillows to kill a man. tragically, he lives.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

if i were the eater of worlds, i'd be pretty disappointed in you.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hey, man, it's his couch.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

that's my entire point. if you couldn't use the cushions of the great lord of the abyss to their natural effect, i mean. well.

i suspect your evil of being rather a bit dilute.

i'm not sure we can be friends anymore.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

it's not MY evil that's dilute, buddy. the intent was pure, but the weapon was weak.

dude's losing his edge, that's what.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

now i KNOW we can't be friends anymore. blasphemer.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

don't be jealous, baby. some people are just born with talent.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

that doesn't even makes SENSE.

the elder god will punish you severely.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i can take him.

[anashi.livejournal.com]

I agree that Dean isn't sexist. He just has a healthy appreciation for women. I would love to be 'appreciated' by Dean any day. The things I do find sexist about the show are the constant portrayel of women as, well...not entirely human, evil, pathetic, etc. Not really a spoiler but I can foresee many more portrayels of women as pathetic evil un-human things in our future. That cop lady was really an exception. Other than that, I love the way this show works.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Cop lady.

Girl in Asylum whose daddy took her skeet shooting and who had the brass to listen to the monster.

Sarah calling Sam on the chauvinism outside the library.

In Hook Man, when the monster that killed the free spirited girl was revealed to be acting on the impetus of the repressed one.

Real!Meg, inside the demon, who fought her way through killing pain to give the guys the info they needed and didn't cry. That was as classy a death scene as you'd get out of John freakin Wayne.

I could go on, if you want.

[anashi.livejournal.com]

Wow, lol, you're obviously invested in this show not being sexist. I wouldn't care if it was sexist or not. Most of the shows I watch have things in them I don't like. SGA being the prime example. Supernatural won't cease to exist if some people don't think its the most feminist show ever. So please don't feel threatened. But anyway, there's examples on the other side. The wife of the healer = evil. The little girl from the portrait= evil. First female ghost we ever see in the pilot = evil. Only reoccurring female in the show (Meg) = evil. Mother = conveniently dead. Jess = Even more conveniently dead for fandom. Actually, there's more examples from my side. I could go on but I've got to get to work.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there are more examples on both sides.

You said that the cop in the Benders was the exception to the rule, I said it wasn't. You said the show constantly portrayed women as inhuman, evil and pathetic. I said it didn't.

So far, that's the only discussion going on here. There's no need to try to personalize it.

[robanybody.livejournal.com]

Then how do you explain Missouri, Mary, Jess, Cassie, and Sarah? They were all portrayed as smart, capable women, and even if some of them couldn't take on the MotW, they were still written as competent and intelligent. Missouri assists the boys in figuring out who's haunting their old home and John trusts Missouri, Mary comes back from the dead to protect her sons in their old home, Jess was the love of Sam's life so she had to have something going on for her, Cassie was a reporter for an independent paper so she's obviously not pathetic or a dunce, and Sarah proved to be damn good in a fight.

The show isn't sexist just because they've got a few female villains and women in distress in a couple of episodes.

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Not to mention, the males on the show, with the exception of Dean and Sam--who are the heroes of the show after all, a function of their role more than their gender--are not portrayed as being any more tough or smart than the females. The male victims lose their heads and act afraid and stupid around the supernatural too and they need to be saved. Males have died, males have been evil. I think the show has done a good job of telling a story about human beings(and their interactions with the supernatural world) who have a variety of experiences and temperaments. In fact the only guests who have really had any agency are females. There really isn't a male equivalent of someone like Kat for instance.

[robanybody.livejournal.com]

People who are calling SPN sexist: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Oh noes your ID and bank cards! I hope you find them.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

heeheehee. they are trying to kill our fathers!!

i hope i find them too zomg.

[tabaqui]

Huh. I think i know of what post you speak of. Possibly. And i found it...annoying and amusing and just sort of eye-rolling.

Anyway - hope you find your *stuff*. Evol couch.

My couch, on the other hand, is the *comfy* couch. It lulls visitors into prolonged sleep. Which roxors, since i can then flist in peace without having to entertain.

Or cook.

Yay, couch!

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hee. couches, man. evil.

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing you're talking about monkeycrackmary's post about a return to pre-Buffy standards of masculinity in the horror genre.

I don't agree with everything she says in her essay. But I like the fact that people are thoughtful enough about the show to write analysis like that. I like to encourage more discussion of the show-- discussions like Mary's that are even-tempered, well thought-out, use examples and are open to debate-- even when they are perspectives I disagree with. Might even disagree with strongly, like it appears you do.

I'd love to hear more (like Hope's and yours and others' comments in Mary's post) from the other side. Does "watch this space" mean you're going to do that? Cause otherwise it just seems like a bit of a cut at Mary for even daring to bring up gender issues in regards to SPN and wow isn't gender politics just a big code word for bitchiness. Which is a shame, and perhaps (I hope) that's not what you're trying to convey.

P.S.- Sorry you lost your ids. That sucks.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

well, as mary didn't specifically mention dean as being sexist in her post, and i specifically mentioned him as regards sexism - and as, two posts previous in my journal, we had a huge discussion about gender politics as regards an unrelated article i found in forbes magazine - no, i'm gonna say it's not a cut at her.

it's a fandom-wide trend. i do plan to address it, meta-wise, sometime soonish, probably tonight. as a refutation, with reasonable examples.

i'm not sure why i'm coming off as bitchy or over-involved, here, honestly it's just that i think the opposing viewpoint is wrong. i'm not afraid to say that i disagree with something, man. *hands*

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

Ah, my mistake. I did see your post about the Forbes article (argh. bah.) but didn't come back to see that the thread had somehow made its way to a discussion of The Winchesters (but, seriously, shouldn't everything end up as a discussion of SPN?).

When I saw the phrase "masculine ethic" and saw that you had commented in her LJ, I put 2 and 2 together, obviously missing the other 2 that makes 6.

Yay! Disagreement! Yay again! I just thought you might want to know what it sounded like (neither bitchy nor over-involved, but perhaps, um, stifling dissent?), when you never intended it as such.

I haven't seen a lot of other whinging about Dean-as-sexist, so I'll be interested to see if people come out of the woodwork for the discussion.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

we'll see what we see! :) the assumption is, i believe, that because dean sleeps around, he does not respect women. which is -i hope you'll pardon the strong wording - mental.

the forbes thing never did come back to the winchesters, but it was a discussion of gender politics, so.

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

the assumption is, i believe, that because dean sleeps around, he does not respect women.

Yeah, but if someone said that about a female character (she sleeps around, ergo, hates men), that same crowd would be forming a lynch mob. *sigh* People, you can't have it both ways!

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

dude, i know. it ain't right.

just like one cannot espouse an ethic that exalts women without also approving of ethics that exact men. there are oodles of women who will explain that feminism doesn't mean we HATE men, it just means women are worth just as much as any man is. but the problem with that is that it's one-sided: nobody accounts for men being worth as much as women, having real value and purpose and worth that can't be duplicated. is every bit as particular to them as a woman's worth is to her.

men are awesome. their ethic is awesome, so long as it doesn't devalue women. and supernatural has consistently showed women a great deal of respect. it's stumbled a few times, yes. i don't say it hasn't. but saying that it's universally sexist is, in my view, just bashing the masculine ethic. there's no evidence for that.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

you are excellent.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

wait till i get going! <3

[traveller.livejournal.com]

no, really, i. you know i get mixed up in words. and this:

nobody accounts for men being worth as much as women, having real value and purpose and worth that can't be duplicated. is every bit as particular to them as a woman's worth is to her.

is the best description of my feelings ever ever.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

and mor:

when gloria steinham said women don't need men at all, i know what she MEANT. she meant that, in this culture, women are expected to be able do everything: hold down a job, take care of the kids and the house and the man, be happy and loving and never complain. and that's not right. i agree with what she meant.

but i don't think it's true that women don't need men. there is something about men that is indefinable and irreplaceable. even lesbians need men, i think, just around. just to know them, work with them, have what they can offer.

just like men need women, even gay men. it works both ways, it's a two-way street. we're not the same, men and women, and that is GOOD. we shouldn't be.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

hi, i will be sitting here quietly in the choir. :)

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hi, preshus. *pet*

the trouble with how our culture views men (and white people and rich people and every other group of power) is that they are not expected to earn respect.

everyone should have to earn respect.

that's why i think we all have such a soft spot for cowboys and soldiers and working class guys. and action heroes, these days. there can be no doubt that these guys have earned the respect they have.

[robanybody.livejournal.com]

I would like you to know that you are awesome and I love you.

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

I don't think Supernatural would be as popular as it is among the crowd I see around here on LJ if it were universally anything, much less sexist. Given the fact that it's essentially a two-man show, I think they've done a relatively good job of giving us a wide range of types-- in both the masculine and feminine characters.

I mean, if you think of the differences alone among three of the women Dean's admired-- Haley, Layla, and Cassie-- that's a pretty broad spectrum of personalities, but yet none of them would I label weak or stereotypical in any way. Now whether Dean-the-character knows that about himself or not is a whole 'nother question (which is one thing I liked about Mary's Dean-Xander comparison, i.e. do we find men attractive who seek out strong women? answer:yes.), but that doesn't really have anything to do with an evaluation of whether Dean is "sexist."

Um, sorry. Maybe I should be saving all these ramblings for when, you know, you actually do post about this! :)

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hee. no, is fine, talking is good!

you wanna know my secret spn otp? it's dean/the waitress from dead in the water.

she swings up to him, leans over and asks him if there's anything else she can get him. and there is a look on her face that, when dean sees it, he returns the EXACT SAME LOOK.

what i love about dean - the confidence, the bravado, the playfulness - it was all right there in that waitress. it was obvious and perfect and i loved it. and all terribly masculine, y'know?

which is why that dean-xander comparison was interesting to me, yes, but also (imho) way underdeveloped. xander is like the anti-macho. he spends his entire arc figuring out whether he's useful, his issues are so totally different than dean's. but they have the same M.O. for dealing with pain, which i would LOVE to see examined, y'know?

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

she swings up to him, leans over and asks him if there's anything else she can get him. and there is a look on her face that, when dean sees it, he returns the EXACT SAME LOOK.

And what pisses me off is that the very people who cry "SEXIST!" are ones who would look at that woman and immediately judge her as "trashy" or "floozie" or "dumb blonde" either because of 1) class (she's a waitress, not a college student or art curator or reporter); 2) looks (she's too "hot" and look at how she dresses! *gasp*); 3) demeanor (like you say, she's sexually aggressive *gasp again*, which makes some people uncomfortable). So she's somehow not "good enough" for Dean. Makes me want to rip my hair out.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

yes. YES. that drives me up the freaking wall.

in conversation with a friend the other day, i brought up contempt, and how it is virtually indistinguishable from hatred. anything that's an excuse for contempt just strikes me as wrong, especially when people use a good cause like that.

like using feminism as an excuse for contempt of men. that insults me not only as a human, on behalf of those men, but as a feminist!

[bookishwench.livejournal.com]

i appear to have lost my bank card and all id cards

Ouch. You're sure no one stole them?

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

i'm not sure, man, but i would bet i lost 'em. *fret*

[brandil.livejournal.com]

oh baby, I hope you find your stuff or in case of theft got everything shut off in time.

Dean = sexist?

One word.

No.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

found 'em!!

and yes. no.

[magickly.livejournal.com]

I am so glad you got your cards back!

I seem to have accidentally written an essay about that essay. It sort of veered completely off the 'gender politics' track and wandered off into a 'relative ethics vs. absolute ethics' track, but hm. Still interesting. Meta! There needs to be more meta! It can only be a good thing.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

hee. accidental essays are the best kind. :D