winterlive ([personal profile] winterlive) wrote2006-04-07 01:11 pm
Entry tags:

[ not quite yet ]

on papa, and his relationship with the boys


first, i'll sum up.

dean shouldn't have been playing mommy to little sammy all the time. they shouldn't have been left in the hotel room alone for three days. john shouldn't have yelled at him like that.

mary shouldn't be dead. a demon shouldn't be actively hunting john's children.

life sucks. get a helmet.1



okay. that was the summation, and now i explain.

people have been throwing around the word abuse. people are saying john is an abusive father. let me address that.

mirriam webster defines abuse as:
  1. : a corrupt practice or custom
  2. : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE
  3. obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION
  4. : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
  5. : physical maltreatment
for our purposes, i'm gonna say that those who are suggesting that john is an abuser are talking about #1 and #4. there is positively no evidence whatsoever for #5, so i'm not even touching that. and i'll further assume that most will go ahead and narrow #1 down to neglect - john forgetting his kids in the pursuit of his wife's killer.

the u.s. department of health and human services tells people looking for signs of neglect to check if:
  • the child shows signs of malnutrition or begs, steals, or hoards food.
  • the child has poor hygiene: matted hair, dirty skin, or severe body odor.
  • the child has unattended physical or medical problems.
  • the child states that no one is home to provide care.
  • the child or caretaker abuses drugs or alcohol.
the kids we saw in yesterday's episode were clean and healthy. anybody who has ever lived poor can tell you that the throwing away of an entire bowl of spaghetti-os because the kid wanted cereal instead is a CARDINAL SIN if you are poor or hungry, and so - categorically, unquestionably - they had enough to eat, on a lasting basis.

nobody was home for three days. that's too long. so that counts, definitely.

the last point, i imagine, is where a lot of people will get hung up, but let's imagine for a second that we can ignore that. let's not discuss whether or not john is an alcoholic, for the time being. we'll put a pin in it, and address it at the end.

so.

neglectful parents, says the DHHS, are often ordinary parents under stressful circumstances. they specifically mention overwhelmed single parents with no support system. typical support systems include family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, religious community, support groups/forums and counseling services. john, as a man who travels the country hunting evil for a living, has access to precisely one of these - friends. pastor jim.

now. this is where this argument always breaks down. why doesn't john settle down in one town, get a real support system and raise his family like a normal person instead of constantly hunting monsters? what is his motivation there? why does he do it? and that's what you have to address if you're going to discuss this issue. and there is no way in the world that i will ever take someone seriously on discussing this issue if they haven't read papa's journals.

the journals are available on the website. i have transcribed them, here, and there are numerous other transcriptions available across the internet.

in these journals, john says, quote and sic:

Last night I was sitting in Sam and Dean's room, in the dark, ad I heard these noises... Mike said it was the wind, and okay, maybe it was, but it sounded almost like whispering, like someone was whispering a name, under their breath, again and again... like something is out there in the dark, watching us... I stayed up all night, just watching them, protecting them. From what, I don't know. Am I protecting them? Am I hurting them? I haven't let them out of my sight since the fire. Dean still hardly talks. I try to make small talk, or ask him if he wants to throw the baseball around. Anything to make him feel like a normal kid again. He never budges from my side - or from his brother. Every morning when I wake up, Dean is inside the crib, arms wrapped around baby Sam. Like he's trying to protect him from whatever is out there in the night.


regardless of whether you believe him about something being after them, or you think he's just paranoid, you can't doubt his intentions. john winchester's intentions are to protect his children.

he faces hard decisions every day about how to raise his kids, harder than most of us or our parents ever had to make. his circumstances are extraordinary, the exception to the rule. but his motivations are crystal clear.

so why doesn't he give his kids an ordinary life? because he believes, and not without evidence, that if he stays in one place for too long, his kids will be in danger. and he places their continued survival above considerations like whether nine years old is too young to be looking after your brother. that is a hard fucking choice, i won't tell you it isn't. but he made it, and i couldn't possibly fault him.

he can't get a babysitter. you can't explain to a babysitter why if someone turns the knob on your door, you should have a gun in your hand when you check to see who's there.

in a world with dopplegangers and mind control, there'll always be an outside chance that pastor jim's place isn't going to be safe for them. they're safer with john than they are anywhere else. they're safer together.

the strega hunt in something wicked was planned to last one night, no more. three days was unplanned for, just like it was unplanned that the fucking thing would be resistant to normal bullets and be able to move too fast to track.

i don't know how john showed up when he did, but i know he wasn't using the kids for bait. leaving aside questions of whether he would do such a thing, if he'd been lurking around the hotel waiting for the strega to show up, he would have a) seen dean leaving and bawled him out for it, and/or b) seen the strega arrive, and showed up just as it started feeding. which he did not.

so. no ordinary life for the winchesters, which means a very spare support system, which means yes, john leaves them alone for too long. john puts too much responsibility on dean, too early. it's true.

some kids have jobs when they're nine. some kids are considered adults at that age.

dean has quarters for an arcade game.

it's easy to judge john for fucking up raising the boys. it's really easy to look at him and say, i would have made a different decision, i can see it clearly, that was bad parenting. but how many of you are parents? how many of you have had to face hard decisions and not known if you were doing the right thing? maybe it was neglectful. maybe it was hard on the kids.

but it was the right thing to do.

sometimes everything doesn't work out perfectly. sometimes the best option has downsides. john makes mistakes, but not the big kind. he yells at dean, and i'm sure he feels bad about that later, but the big decisions - fight the bad guy, teach the kids to protect themselves, keep them safe - these are the right decisions. his mistakes are trivial in comparison, and no matter how much they might be crucial mistakes if a normal parent makes them, john is outside of that. he has bigger concerns, because something wants his children dead and he has to stop that from happening. there is no question about that. no real parent could do anything else. so he makes the choices he does and he does the hard thing and, most importantly, he puts his kids first. he doesn't take the easy road. john winchester is the kind of man that will do what needs doing, and it doesn't matter if it wears on him or if it's difficult, because it's the right thing to do.

now.

ask me if he drinks.



1: quoth the great denis leary.

[identity profile] apocalypsos.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
*swoon* I love you.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:26 pm (UTC)(link)
*kisskiss*

[identity profile] estrella30.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
also, something else which you said in I think [livejournal.com profile] cereta's lj, was that if you watch this now, and love sam and dean now, and think they're good people, good men, good brothers now, then you have no one but JOHN to thank for that. he took a hard situation and did with it what he could. by himself. with no one else for help.

and maybe he wasn't ever perfect, but who of us are. there's no question that whatever he did he loved his boys, and I think to look at them now you *know* that and can *see* that. so. fault him some of his choices, but overall he must have done a hell of a job, imo.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:29 pm (UTC)(link)
i know that there are some reasonable people out there contending that john's culpable for some of this, and i'm sure they're fine people, but honestly, there are some people who are like...

like, if dean does it, oh, it's excusable, he's had a tough life. but if JOHN does it, then who CARES if he's a veteran, who CARES if he lost his wife. TAKE CARE OF MY WOOBIE OR YOU ARE EVIL.

faugh!

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[identity profile] without-me.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't know you'd transcribed the journal entries. Very cool. Thank you!

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
no problem! it was quite a while ago.

i have no problem letting people see my sources. that stuff comes from kripke, it comes from the writers. it's as much canon as anything else.

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ext_16873: (spn} john)

[identity profile] maleyka.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Does he drink?

Do I think that John got filthy rotten drunk at least once after Mary's death? Oh yeah. Do I think that he did it twice, or three, or four times? Most likely. Do I think there were a couple of years when he'd drink himself stupid on the anniversary of her death? Possibly. Do I think he's an alcoholic? No. He focused all his grief and rage on the hunt. And his boys need him too much. John would rather die than let harm befall Sam or Dean, and he knows that becoming an addict would be the fastest way to ensure just that.

[identity profile] amberlynne.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the perception of him as an alcoholic comes from the pilot when Sam is clearly insinuating that his dad is just off on a booze bender and Dean is overreacting. As happens a lot in pilot episodes, they might have thought it was a good idea to give John that character flaw but either dropped it or forget they even brought it up at all.

I think the more we learn about him, the less likely it becomes that he had a serious drinking problem but I can see where people might have that idea, especially early on.

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brynwulf: (trilogy)

[personal profile] brynwulf 2006-04-07 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
THANK YOU! *You rock somethin' awesome*

Fuck yeah, John drinks. Wouldn't you? But just like he feeds and clothes his kids, even if they don't have a "normal" homelife, I'm willing to bet my new Toby Keith CD that he doesn't drink when he's hunting.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
he would never endanger those kids like that. it would go against EVERYTHING WE KNOW about his character to imagine that he would.

*smish you*

[identity profile] unholyglee.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Dude. You've pretty much made the post I've been writing since last night pointless. Fye on you!

No, really. I can't be coherent about this now because I've been close to kicking people in the teeth all day and whenever I do post this, you're so getting linked.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
just try to breathe through it, sugar. ♥

[identity profile] ringwench.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for writing this! I've been seeing so many posts about John being a bad and/or neglectful father and I really don't think a lot of people making those statements are seeing the big picture here.

Yeah, maybe leaving a 9 year old and 5 year old alone in a hotel room overnight isn't the best idea in the entire world, from a purely objective standpoint. But if you look at the life they led and the fact that Dean was a very mature and seemingly competent 9 year old, you really can't fault John for that. Especially given the fact that you're right, he CAN'T exactly get a babysitter and he can't take them with him (especially not Sam at that age), so what else is he supposed to do?

And I love those journal entries. The image of little Dean in the crib protecting baby Sammy has stuck with me since I first read the entry months ago. I'm so glad the show's writers care enough about their fans to give us excellent background information like that.

his mistakes are trivial in comparison, and no matter how much they might be crucial mistakes if a normal parent makes them, john is outside of that. he has bigger concerns, because something wants his children dead and he has to stop that from happening.

EXACTLY!

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
it's not like we're saying that john's perfect, or that he always does the right thing, but there is a lesser-of-two-evils choice going on here, and it's a tough decision but somebody's gotta make it. and i think that all some people are seeing is: life is hard for the boys, oh woe. and there's more to consider.

in essence: HI. ♥
ext_1124: (bbm_ennis by toxxxicgurl)

[identity profile] rainkatt.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Not in the fandom, but I've seen a couple of eps, and did see that one, more or less, so I'm perhaps completely full of shit here.

I know that things are different now, but I grew up in a household where at least two of the three parental figures could have used an antidepressant or lithium, or something. We were poor. There was rampant cluelessness (see dental work on children without painkiller), some mental and verbal abuse, and I got a job working in the fields when I was nine. Eight+ hours a day, 5-6 days a week, for six weeks in the summer. I had a couple of weeks of vacation either side, and then went back to parochial school. This lasted until I was 15, and old enough to work elsewhere, when I got a job in a hospital. That money paid for school clothes that weren't purchased at Goodwill, and the books I wanted so badly. I never worked during the school year. Much of what happened when I was a child has been called abusive long after the fact, and maybe it was, by today's standards. But the simple fact of becoming a parent, given that none of us is perfect, is a guarantee that you're going to do something to fuck up your kid. Just ask my kid. Seriously. He'll tell you. But. He's taken responsibility for who he is (I've done the same, although we've done it very differently), and we're both here and happy and healthy.

Sam and Dean got one of the most important things EVER. They know their dad loves them. Loved them. And did his best to protect them, always. That's like gold, no matter what else happened.

(I suppose I could have just said "word," but, well, I needed to ramble.) ;-)

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
that is EXACTLY what i am talking about, baby. exactly. spot fuckin on.

<33333

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[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)
*hartypants*

[identity profile] onefishjyuufish.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
O Ms Win, they were saying terrible things!

I couldn't believe it. One, I don't get so het up about these things usually. I like to discuss character motivation and such, but I am feeling up in arms! Rarr!

Two, the opposing argument just seems... scurrilous, to use a random word. John is not a perfect parent. Has anyone tried to say that he is?

I just don't get the comparison of John's parenting skills to, say, your normal suburban family. They're not. Isn't that the whole point? Extenuating circumstances demand extraordinary measures and decisions. There are not always good choices available - in this dark of a world there's usually bad and worse - but you have to choose. And I don't doubt that there are probably a few more things that John did that would make even his sympathizers angry - and those that don't like him would just be livid to hear them.

Also, one instance (so far) of neglect is not good, but it's hardly a full pattern of neglect. We need more, Kripke! *taps foot*

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
sam and dean do not act like neglected kids. actions speak louder than words, man, and those kids act like normal, healthy people.

as rainkatt says, above, standards vary all over the place as to what constitutes neglect or abuse. it's all very subjective.

i think we've been shown unquestionably that john loves his kids and wants to protect them, and that he acts based on that. the kids he raised grew up right, into good people. and that right there is more or less what i need to know that he's a good father.

[identity profile] bdbdb.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
You are brilliant! Wanna make out? ;)

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
bring it on, baby. *smish*
tabaqui: (s&dexistence)

[personal profile] tabaqui 2006-04-07 09:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Just can't say 'yes'! more loudly. I loved that Dean was so...cool. Calm. Ready to do and be just what his dad needed but still - *still* - a kid.

And i think, yes, the changes in John after this incident was mostly his horror at what *he'd* almost done - putting so much trust and expectations onto his very young son. I think after that he probably had his own nights of horrible, tearing guilt.

Did i want him to bite off a sob and hold out his arm and pull Dean into a hug? Yes. And maybe he did, half an hour later. But man - when you're freaking that your kid is almost dead, you *snap* - i've done it to poor Monstrous.

Nothing but love for this ep and these boys. *Nothing*.

I must go read the transcripts.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
i don't know, i'm not sure john felt all that guilty about it. i mean, guilty, yes. he made the wrong choice. but i don't know if he beat himself up about it, y'know? dean said they never talked about it again, and i think john is in a tough situation, and he might have wound up thinking, hey, if dean can't handle these things, he needs to learn to speak up. or something. i don't even know.

mistakes happen. they do not make him a bad father. he's a good father. he isn't a PERFECT father.

HE IS JUST A MAN, TABI, I LOVE HIM SO. *twirls around in a giddy spin of love*

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ext_6545: (brilliant ; beyond words ; love)

[identity profile] bunnymcfoo.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
danny, you are so my hero. seriously and for realz, and i love you just a wee bit more because of this post.


i get really tired of people bagging on papa. he's doing the best that he can, under horrible circumstances. end of story.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
they're so BITTER, y'know? i don't understand them.

HE IS NOT YOUR FATHER, PEOPLE. YOU ARE NOT DEAN.

like, lookit maygra up there. she's cool. she's talking about things like a reasonable human, cos nobody ever said john couldn't be flawed. nobody said he was perfect. everybody knows that. and we don't, y'know, HATE HIM for his mistakes.

*hands*

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[identity profile] dryad-duinath.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
it's shtriga. also, I agree.

/obsessive nitpicking.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
*hands* strega is an italian witch, i get confused.

HI.

[identity profile] mrscutedean.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 11:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Holy crap I couldn't word you any harder if I tried.

WORD!

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
papa rulez!! <3

[identity profile] wrenlet.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
*giggles* Okay yeah, I spent all day with the browser off and then I LEAPT AND POSTED and here you've already done it times a hundred!!

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-07 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
*gurgles at your icon omg oh deeeeeeeeean*

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[identity profile] exsequar.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 02:02 am (UTC)(link)
*applauds*

Oh Papa, we hearts you, we really really do!!

I need to read that journal.. thanks for the link and transcribing it :)

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
*thumbs way up*

[identity profile] teaspoon.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 02:16 am (UTC)(link)
a-fucking-men, sistah!

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[identity profile] robanybody.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
You rock my world, baby. Thank you for putting all my thoughts and arguments into a coherent post because you know mine would've been nothing but "arggggggggggh SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT PAPA, YOU ASSHOLES" repeatedly.

At eight years old, I had to take care of my sister as we traveled alone to India. I had to make sure we had the passports and money for food, and I had to meet up with the flight attendants who led us onto the plane, and I had to comfort my sister when she cried for our parents, and I had to do this for three years. And when we were older, I had to make sure my siblings had breakfast in the morning before I walked them to school because my parents worked really early hours, and occasionally, my parents left us alone for a day or two, and they didn't want to, but that was just how it had to be.

It wasn't always the best choice for us, and my parents didn't like having to make that choice, but no one could ever call it abuse. It was just their only option, and they agonized over it, but they had to do it sometimes, and I understood why.

So I get where John's coming from, and I realize that it wasn't the best choice to leave them alone in a hotel room, but to call it abuse is pushing it too far.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:40 pm (UTC)(link)
*clutch you*

baby, some people, they just don't get it.

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[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
there are levels of abuse, they're using it like a buzz word, they are JUDGING, and it makes me angry.

hai. <3
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[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
just sayin what comes natural, y'know? <3

[identity profile] immoralilly.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 11:00 am (UTC)(link)
Agreed. Definitely agreed. I'm annoyed at all the shtick John has been getting in the fandom. He was doing the best he could, and he couldn't plan for the situation.
Plus, the boys turned out OK, didn't they?

And no. No, he doesn't drink.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
they could think anything they wanted about him if they didn't use it as an excuse to call him a jerk. really, that's pretty much my fundamental problem.

♥!!
ext_5650: Six of my favourite characters (Default)

[identity profile] phantomas.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 11:21 am (UTC)(link)
Hi :)
can I post a link to this from [livejournal.com profile] papawinchester? and in general is it okay for future entries too?

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
hi! of course, it's just fine if you link to me. :)

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[identity profile] everxxafter.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
*raises drinks* Cheers to John, doing his absolute best to protect his boys anyway and everyway he could!


Secondly, does John drink? He has probably tried to wash away the memories of his wife pinned to the ceiling on many occasions, but I don't think he's an alcoholic. That would put the boys in danger and as we all know John is a man who would do anything to protect his kids.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
word, my dearest. WORD.

[identity profile] axis2cluster-b.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a mommy, and a wife, and a full time student, and I work damn near full time, and my hubby's bipolar, and I'm a couple of weeks off graduation and I'm busier than I know what to do with. At this point in time, it's 9.00 Saturday morning, and I've been awake since 5.00 Friday morning.

Have I gotten enough time with my son in the last two years? Nope. Have I missed things that I really, really wanted to be there for? Yep. Have I cried over those? Oh, yes. Has he ever looked up at me with big eyes and asked me to stay home instead of going to work/school/study? In fact, he has. Did I cry in the car pretty much every time I had to tell him that I *had* to go? I did.

But y'know what? There's a greater good involved. At the end of all of this, I'll be able to have time with him, and it'll be quality, and on top of it, I'll be able to afford to take care of him.

As parents, we fuck it up, but most of us do it for the right reasons.

I'm agreeing with you. Babbling out of exhaustion, but agreeing.

[identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com 2006-04-08 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
*holds you so tight omg*

baby, i just, i want people to stop hating. end of story.

your kid will be a fine young man because his mom loves him. end of... other story. *beams*

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