[personal profile] winterlive
listen, i just want you all to know something. i have this policy. it is my bulletproof squick. no matter how awesome a fic is, if it has this thing in it, i won't comment to it and i won't rec it. i hate it with a fiery passion, it drives me insane, it honest to god makes me close the window. i can't click X fast enough.

it's for people to speak really ill of john.

i mean, i get that some people think that john screwed up raising the boys, i do. but it's like spike/xander shippers bashing buffy. sure, i mean, the character's human. they make mistakes. but that's no cause for misrepresenting the character completely. that's no cause for screwing canon to hell and back.

there are people who do not like a given character that manage to still write them reasonably. it's with their slant, i mean. people that don't like john would write him harsher than i would, unquestionably. but facts are facts: john disappearing for a month with no word is not usual. the pilot says so. john marched into torment eternal so that dean could live. that's the facts, jack. that's canon.

so making a character like that into an irredeemable villain with no lead-in whatsoever... that's LAME. why not just give dean a lisp and a limp wrist, or have sam cry himself to sleep at night over that girl at school who doesn't like him back? it is bad characterization, and while i admit that i have a love of john that rivals my love of chocolate, that's neither here nor there in this instance.

RAR.

in closing, please realize that this pent-up rage comes from months and months and months of exposure to fandom at large and is not connected in particular to any one story that you and/or your friends may or may not have put out recently. :)






and now for a much less rar explanation of something in monogatari. this is totally my personal opinion, so y'know, take it or leave it, ymmv. some of it is copy-pasted from an answer to a comment i received on the story, la la la. :D

~

i love rps au as a genre. using the samurai, and japan, with that new flavor, i get to explore themes of (especially j2) rps that otherwise can be escaped.

the samurai in monogatari took the place of the actors. i tried to touch on their celebrity, their dedication to their craft. how hard their choices can be, and how much the public eye is always on them, up to and including crazy people trying to get at them out of jealousy or desire.

specifically with regard to jared and jensen, i read an interview just a little while ago where jensen was saying that jared had come so far with his acting since he started work on supernatural - not that he'd been a slouch before, but just, he really was doing great work. i really do believe that not a little of that is jensen's own influence, his discipline and self-control.

and the two of them are more together than they would have been apart. now that they're a team, a pair, you can't separate them - just like the real life boys. and when they fight, the world around them trembles. the producers and critics alike have credited the show's success to the chemistry between jared and jensen. if they fight on set, if they're not getting along, people hold their breath because the entire show rests on these two. everybody knows that.

that's why i'd never publish monogatari. that's why it's not original fiction. it loses all of that in translation, all that stuff goes right out the window if i just change the names. these two samurai are jared and jensen: that's the whole point of the story, y'see.

so. i hope that clears that up, at least a little. :)

Date: 2007-06-08 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thisisbone.livejournal.com
Hey, you! I'm about 30 pages into the story, and thoroughly enjoying it, although I know less than nothing about Japan or the samurai. It's a little bit like reading science fiction!

I *adore* stories that show how a pairing is stronger and better together than apart, and how each half of the pair strengthens the other by what they bring to it. It's one of my favorite things to read in fic, and I love how this story is giving me that!

I had a similar thought (I haven't read through my flist today, so I don't know if people have been asking why you didn't just write this as ofic, though it sounds that way) but like you, I'm really enjoying what I see as the "echoes" of their 'real selves' in this -- they're different, and yet, I still "see" them.

Date: 2007-06-08 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
hi hi hi! i'm so glad you're liking it, yaye. :D

yeah, i've had a few comments from folks that seem to think i ought to get it published as original fiction, and a much as i really really appreciate the encouragement (I DO) i just wanted to explain, like. *beams*

jared & jensen, baby. yes please. with cherries on top.

Date: 2007-06-08 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flipmontigirl.livejournal.com
Re: John.

Um. Ok. :)

Re: Monogatari. I'm taking it with me for my weekend abroad. I've seen raving reviews and I can't wait to start reading. :D

Makes sense, what you're saying.

Date: 2007-06-08 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
re: john

months. and months and months. i was a regular newsletter coder when vylit started it and now i sub in, and i'm convinced there's a kind of PTSD that sets in which makes a girl totally irrational on the subject of her pet peeves. the world doesn't have to agree with me, but aigh, needed venting.

re: monogatari

whee! i surely do hope that you like it, darlingest. your review would definitely mean a big lot - i really do like the style of your writing, the way you put words together. you are excellent, a writer i really admire.

i didn't know you were taking a trip! did i miss something? where are you going? :)

Date: 2007-06-08 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flipmontigirl.livejournal.com
Re: John.

I, for one, don't understand John Winchester, and not for lack of trying. I love him and I hate him and I'm drawn to him because he's a mystery to me. Deep down I think I want him, but I don't know how to take him, if that makes any sense at all.

What all that translates to when I'm writing is that I don't know what to do with him. Sometimes it's just easier to have him be gone for a month, canon or no canon. ;p

One day, when I feel confident and thrilled and all experimental, I'll write a story about John Winchester and see what happens.

The funniest thing about this whole thing is that the only Winchester I (think I) do get (that'd be Sam) is wholly, perfectly, completely his father's son.

Go figure!

Re: Monogatari.

It's coming with me to The Netherlands. I'm going for two days because a friend of mine is getting married. It'll be beautiful, seeing my friend again, seeing the place again. The Netherlands are very dear to me, I lived there for a year, a while ago. It'll be weird, going back.

And no, you didn't really miss anything. It's not something I've shared with my flist. Until right now, that is.

As for Monogatari itself. As I said, I can't wait. I know how much work and effort it's taken you and I admire you for being able to think and write "big", for sticking with the plot and the story and not being afraid of the amount of work and time it'd take. I wish I could do that.

Re: what you wrote about my writing.

I had no idea you felt that way.

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*grins*

Date: 2007-06-08 09:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
re: john
i would LOVE to see that. i would love to see you explore that side in fiction, that would rule. GO YOU. CONSIDER ME YOUR CHEERLEADER. :D

re: monogatari
eef eef i hope you like it. have fun with your friend, and i dearly wish for a lovely and touching ceremony that ends with a rollicking good reception. <3

re: your writing
no, seriously. <33333

Date: 2007-06-08 09:04 pm (UTC)
ext_9649: (Default)
From: [identity profile] traveller.livejournal.com
if you're disposed to take it so, the encouragement to turn a piece of fic into "original" (i despise that term, it implies nothing good) and/or "publishable" material can easily be read as an insult. if you tilt your head, it can be taken to mean this was a great story qua story but the characters could be just anybody which is, of course, the total opposite of what any fanfic writer intends to accomplish. "ATG" is one of the worst insults you can throw at us.

*thinkface*

reply to my email, you hack.

Date: 2007-06-08 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
1. what's atg?

2. i read it as "this story is so good that you ought to be paid for it. it is easily comparable to any piece of published fiction out there and your characterization has been so effectively carried out that people do not, in fact, need the additional backstory that knowing the real people/characters in question would provide." while i appreciate the encouragement, i only differ slightly on that last point.

3. that hole. in your face. <3

Date: 2007-06-08 10:03 pm (UTC)
ext_9649: (come on down to dollar dave's)
From: [identity profile] traveller.livejournal.com
1/ any two guys. it's a specifically slash term but i've seen people refer to cardboardy gen as atg as well. as in, this is such generic central casting quote-unquote characterisation that story could be about any two guys.

2/ i did disclaim "if you're disposed to."

3/ <3

Date: 2007-06-08 09:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] strippedpink.livejournal.com
I haven't commented to the fic yet because I'm still finding WORDS, but wanted you to know, for what it's worth...I lived in northern Japan for about five years and in a silly way (silly because, HI, I am not actually Japanese), your fic felt like going home again. I mean, it was spot-on. It made me MISS Misawa, and just. Nothing's really done that since I've been back stateside.

If I wind up getting tickets to go visit, I'm blaming you.

Date: 2007-06-08 09:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
eeeeef. eef. mew.

i accept full responsibility. *cuddles you tight*

Date: 2007-06-08 10:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altyronsmaker.livejournal.com
Well. About Monogatari.

It WOULD work as an original piece of fiction. Because all that backstory you're assuming (the stuff about Jensen and Jared and them being in synch and having such chemistry) is woven into that story in such a way that the CHARACTERS you created demonstrate EXACTLY those qualities.

Gah! That's not right! It's not exactly what I want to say about that story.....

*thinks*
Okay. let's try this:
I don't know the 'real story' about Jared or Jensen. I see what I see on screen, and that, to me, is Dean and Sam. Of course the actors have chemistry, I get that, in order to play with each other as well as they do. But it's only in the context of the scene.

Now, in Monogatari, you developed that chemistry slowly. It wasn't there from the beginning. Jensen didn't really consider Jared worthy quite yet, until he compared him to the other two potential students. Even after he chose Jared, the two of them still had moments of dissention. But you wrote the gradual melding and understanding in such a way as to make it real - in YOUR story. I didn't sense, reading it, that I was expected to know about their chemistry beforehand, because your writing made it - the development of it - subtle and real, and inexorable.

That is why it would work as an original fiction, to me. Because the character development is natural, unassumed, and successful.

I hope that makes more sense than the first bit there.

Date: 2007-06-09 02:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
aw, sugar. i think i should have said, like. i really do appreciate the enthusiasm and encouragement. it's all very much taken in the spirit in which it was given and i LOVE you all for it. SQUISH.

i see your point, i do. and it's sure reasonable. it's not something i'd consider for THIS story, personally, but again, i do appreciate. <3333

Date: 2007-06-08 10:06 pm (UTC)
trinity_clare: (abhorsen)
From: [personal profile] trinity_clare
You are going to get so sick of me spamming you about this story, omg. Anyway, I've been convincing non-RPS-fans to read it by telling them it could be anybody and not OMG REAL PEOPLE, but I completely agree that it's fantastically richer when you look at it as an RPS story. Also, when I say "publishable" I also mean that you've characterized them fully without falling back on the idea that we'll know who they are.

Date: 2007-06-09 02:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
i will never get tired of you spamming me about this story. DING DING TRY AGAIN. <3333333333333333

Date: 2007-06-08 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosekay.livejournal.com
Well, you already know I consider you 100% genius for Monogatari in general, but I do love that aspect of it you, how you play with templates, and not even from a canon where we're really certain, but in the wacky international and domestic acting stage. Egotistically, I wasn't really sold on the idea of Jared-student/Jensen-teacher until I wrote it, but reading this is what really made me stop and go, HUH, yes, there it is. And yup, if Kurosawa ruled the world, Toshiro Mifune would OF COURSE be one of his generals. And I like that recent Oscar contenders better known to Western audiences are the ones running the shogunate that covers the Americas in their territory. I dunno, it's all such heightened silliness in a way, because, you know, rpf, but I figure a story's what you make it, and with these details, you made it pretty damn good.

Date: 2007-06-08 11:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosekay.livejournal.com
blahblah typos. sorry!

Date: 2007-06-09 02:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
silliness, yes, but such fun silliness. cracked out, crazy, switcheroo.

i had to be convinced several times to just go with it, stop worrying about what people would say and just DO THINGS. it seems to have turned out for the best, y'know? :D

Date: 2007-06-09 12:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vylit.livejournal.com
God, that is so my pet peeve. I mean, there are writers that I would LOVE if they could just get over their irrational hate of John that basically turns him into Satan incarnate. Honestly, it doesn't matter if the writer likes him or not, there's who he is canonically.

Also, I am thinking that I need to send you more feedback. I have this entire thing I've been thinking about that's like world building, relationships, realism, and stuff. Maybees later tonight.

<3

Date: 2007-06-09 02:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
vi. i love you. so much. OW.

you should come skype with me. it has been forevers.

Date: 2007-06-09 06:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iyalode.livejournal.com
John. I don't want a character who's a cardboard cut out. Get enough of those already thank you very much.

JDM and the SPN crew have given us a complicated man, driven, imperfect and broken. A man of iron and one stubborn s.o.b. Yet I have never doubted for one second that he loved his sons, and his frienship should be hoarded like a gold sovereign. Love him one minute, throw your hands up in the air in frustration the next. That's the beauty and the beast of John Winchester.

psst. Have you read [livejournal.com profile] big_pink's latest story? Perfect example of how to write John.

Date: 2007-06-09 07:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
ah, no, i tend to shy away from WIPs. have been burned, alas. and it's a good thing you said something, because given her warnings, i definitely would have steered clear. if i see something completed, i'll give it a shot. :)

my benchmark for john winchester is now and, i suspect, will always be [livejournal.com profile] traveller. her fics someday (never comes) (http://traveller.livejournal.com/828299.html) and let us now praise famous men (http://traveller.livejournal.com/855648.html) are the perfectest possible things in the history of what is possible, so far as i have seen. if you haven't read them, i cannot recommend them strongly enough.

Date: 2007-06-09 08:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] iyalode.livejournal.com
Ooh, thanks, I haven't read those.

I can't say Pink's latest is an easy read. John & Dean straight after Sam's leaving does not a pretty picture make, at the moment its pretty ugly. I'm hoping my faith will be validated when she's finished.

Date: 2007-06-10 02:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
let me know!

Date: 2007-06-09 09:13 am (UTC)
ext_6545: (& we'll go dancing tonight)
From: [identity profile] bunnymcfoo.livejournal.com
word of warning: much as I actually love [livejournal.com profile] big_pink's Red (and believe me, I do love it) I had to stop reading the fic she wrote after it because of her take on John. It made me see redangryspots in front of my eyes, Danners, and well.


I made it through two parts, I think, and skipped ahead to the end. It was like black coffee that's been sitting and brewed too strong - bitter, and with bits of the grounds still in it. *hands* I don't know, maybe it was just me. But yes. Warning.



which is my way of saying a huge, fat, neon glowing WORD to your motha concerning John.


also. hi.

Date: 2007-06-10 02:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
uh, okay, yeah. hi bunnies. i believe i'll be not looking until iyalode tells me she makes it all up in hte end. b/c my redangryspots are just like yours, bunnies, but bigger. and redder. and angrier.

*cling*

Date: 2007-06-10 05:27 am (UTC)
ext_6545: (Default)
From: [identity profile] bunnymcfoo.livejournal.com
I just fail to understand how anyone could - nevermind. I am not going to rant in your el jae. John is no saint, but he's also not a Demon. Except, you know, when the Demon is John, in which case he is Made Of Hotness, and I have just totally derailed this train of thought, because Demon!John with Dean against the wall still has the power to distract me from anything and everything.


Hi. Work was very long tonight, and I got into a conversation with one of my tables about how Gray's should NOT have killed off Denny. It was a Jeffrey Dean night at OTB!

Date: 2007-06-10 01:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shamangrrl.livejournal.com
RE: John

You know, I've always loved John, and really felt for him. I truly believe that he loves *both* of his boys. I think that Dean did a lot of the raising of Sam, but not because John didn't love either of them. I think he was just so overwhelmed with the death of Mary and finding out about the supernatural that once he started getting his head straight, a lot of damage had already been done. It's funny, but watching the pilot, I really got the impression that while Dean idolized John to the point of blinding himself to his faults, Sam went the opposite way. He seemed to have "revised" the family history a bit, to make things easier on himself. That's really one of the things I love about the show, though. Both Sam and Dean (and John, before he died) evolved, and grew. Dean realized that Dad wasn't perfect, but he still knew that over everything else, he was loved. Sam realized that John wasn't the heartless bastard he'd tried to convince himself of. He was just a man who made mistakes, and *tried to make up for them*. And John himself realized that his revenge was *much* less important than his sons.

I pretty much love John, faults and all.

RE: Monogatari

I stayed up until 2:30 am to finish this story, and then I couldn't go to sleep! I kept seeing scenes in my head, found myself wondering about this character or that character, wondering what such and such a place looked like... You get the picture. I actually went on and on about the story to my mother, leaving out the slash aspect because, well, you can imagine why! Anyway, creativity of this type just humbles me. Being able to come up with such a full-bodied, well-envisioned world, and then being able to write about it in such a manner... There are two things in this world I envy in other people - the ability to be witty and make people laugh (without being cruel to others to do it), and creativity hand in hand with the ability to make that creative imagining a reality. You've got it in spades, and I thank you for it.

Date: 2007-06-10 02:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
i love john like a fat kid loves cake. johhhhhhn. *gimme hands*

and thank you so much for your kind words about the story. it was a lot of work, and i'm really pleased that people seem to like it. :D

Date: 2007-06-10 01:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] realpestilence.livejournal.com
I know how you feel re: John. I think I could take the Bad!John stories better, if there were just as many Good!John ones; but fandom does seem to love casting him as the villain most of the time. What are your particular likes or dislikes-if I find anything that seems to fit, I can toss you a link, if you like.

Re: the chemistry & influence of Jensen & Jared on each other-oh, definitely. Jensen wouldn't say-and possibly doesn't realize-that he's been a very good example for Jared. Jared has helped Jensen deal with the attention and publicity, too, and seems to automatically intercept for him. I love how they look out for each other & considering how much time they spend together, it's amazing how well they get along.

What aggravates me the most are the fans who want to fight over who's better, whether it's Jensen or Jared, or Dean or Sam. The point in either case is, as you said-they're a *team*; they're complementary personalities and wouldn't do as good a job alone or with anyone else. *huffs*


Have you ever seen the movie, "Farewell, My Concubine"? If not, you might be interested. It's amazing-beautifully filmed, acted, scripted, everything. Details the training of boys for the Chinese opera with a background of political/military tumult. They end up with a relationship that is as close to being lovers as they can get, without actually having sex. I *think* it was directed by Ang Lee.



Pesti

Date: 2007-06-10 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
up above, there are two links to stories that have the very stellar perfect john in them, both by traveller. they are my benchmark. if you find anything like that, let me know. :)

i haven't seen that movie, no, but i'll keep an eye out for it.

and i absolutely think that jared has taught jensen a lot too, in being close to him - a lot about joie de vivre, a lot about resilience. jared is an excellent human and a perfect complement to jensen - you gotta take the pair, i concur. :D

Date: 2007-06-10 05:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lavenderfrost.livejournal.com
Frankly, I have a wary view of most published fiction by now.

There are so many amazing authors in lots of fandoms on my f-list that'll never be able to get their best fic published because it is, by it's very nature, un-publishable. I've also come across so much truly crappy published material in the past 5 years or so, with unbelievably bad spelling/grammar editing and shoddy characterization (the truly sad part is that the characters were "original") that no self-respecting fic author would allow another soul to see.

In my mind, fic isn't a "lesser" thing anymore. It's just another form of publishing that isn't about the product or the profit. As YoSaffBridge says to Mal, "You're assuming the payoff is the point!" (That also happens to be why FanLib will never work, but that's a whole 'nother rant for some other time. lol)

Date: 2007-06-11 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
fic isn't a "lesser" thing

DING DING DING DING. YES. TEN POINTS WILL BE AWARDED TO YOUR HOUSE.

man, i just. i don't get that attitude when i see it, y'know? fic stands for FICTION. *hands*

Date: 2007-06-14 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emmademarais.livejournal.com
People bash John? Clearly I am not reading enough SPN fic if I have missed such a travesty or rather been lucky enough to be spared it.

I love writing John, in fact I have John fic including a John Series that doesn't include the boys at all. Until I caved into the Dean!love (I needed some time to recover from that god awful character in SV) John was my favorite. I still love him and was so thrilled to see him pop up the finale to resolve his story line. /loves/

I would imagine some authors who bash John as a father are just exorcising their own daddy issues or are just spiteful that he hurt their beloved boys with his absences etc. My POV is he did the best he could with the crappy hand he was dealt. We saw that given the chance to be happy or save lives Dean gives up his own happiness to save hundreds. Argue with his methods or not, but John raised those boys up right: with honor, courage and a sense of duty. That he gave his soul to save one of them was no surprise. There is nothing he wouldn't do to save his family and he passed that down to his sons as well.

So this is a very long way of saying I am with you on the Don't Bash My John Train.

Besides, there's a simple and believable way to make John evil and it's so good it was canon - put a demon in him. Easy as pie... /grin/

/hears Dean yelling 'Get me some pie!' to Sam in the back of her head/

Hehehe

Date: 2007-06-14 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winterlive.livejournal.com
people bash john. it is bad and wrong and we hates it, precious.

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